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The Ceremony

Friday, July 14, 2017 - 04:00 AM

WNYC Studios

Last November, journalist Morgen Peck showed up at her friend Molly Webster's apartment in Brooklyn, told her to take her battery out of her phone, and began to tell her about The Ceremony, a moment last fall when a group of, well, let's just call them wizards, came together in an undisclosed location to launch a new currency. It's an undertaking that involves some of the most elaborate security and cryptography ever done (so we've been told). And math. Lots of math. It was all going great until, in the middle of it, something started to behave a little...strangely.

Reported by Molly Webster. Produced by Matt Kielty and Molly Webster. Denver Ceremony station recordings were created by media maker Nathaniel Kramer, with help from Daniel Cooper. 

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Morgen Peck, Peter Todd, Peter Van Valkenburgh and Zooko Wilcox


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Comments [75]


It's unfortunate that there were so many technical flaws with the episode. The one that really bugged me the most was the whole bitcoin thing. Yes, the ledger is public, but you can and should be using a private key for your transactions. This ensures (mathematically) that your anonymity is upheld, unless you share your key. It's a much better method than creating some elaborate ceremony that could easily be replaced with a script and some cryptography. Cryptocurrencies are already highly suspect to price manipulation, which you can easily see empirically just looking at the data on the one you highlighted this episode.

I can't remember who said the quote, but I think it kind of applies here. "I'm not mad at you for lying to me, I'm mad that I can't trust you anymore." Now that I see how you casually overlook such an obvious technical detail, I can't help but be even more skeptical of the ideas you share that I'm not so familiar with.

Anyway, for a podcast which seems to enjoy taking on questions of ethics and morality, it may be time to start revamping your commitment to journalistic integrity, before you just become another source that people can't trust. I understand that the point is to be thought provoking, and not necessarily correct, but that mark is missed when such trivial details are overlooked.

Apr. 09 2018 02:08 AM

super interesting and well-done, but please never use the word "dopest" again (:

Mar. 08 2018 09:31 PM
Faith from Los Angeles

Thank you for this episode -- one of my favorites, had me on the edge of my seat and really challenged my brain. I got chills when the phone thing happened!

Nov. 20 2017 04:50 PM
Marian from South Carolina

I enjoyed the episode.

I think a more obvious topic statement may have avoided the hate-on in the comments below. It isn't an episode about cyber security, so much as it's an episode about the faith alchemy and what kind of purity it takes to achieve it. People, expecting one and receiving the other and then getting angrily vocal about it, may just be confused. That's still a problem, just a different one.

Faith alchemy is pretty interesting in this day.

Nov. 09 2017 11:11 AM
David Kosy from Pittsburgh

1. Why didn't the hacker know android?
2. Wouldn't all her info be backed up to Google cloud? I have Android and pretty much everything is backed up as soon as I do it.

Nov. 01 2017 08:27 PM
Gabriel from California

This was the most fascinating episode! Great job!!

Oct. 28 2017 05:57 PM
lloyd from Brooklyn NY

Someone should do a podcast about why otherwise great podcasts allow their interviewees to start every sentence with the word "So".

Oct. 23 2017 05:18 PM

What a waste of time. This episode was pointless and served no greater purpose. Waste of money and time.

Oct. 16 2017 10:22 AM
Nirav from Albuquerque

When they bought the wizard hat, did they use cash or credit?

Oct. 16 2017 12:59 AM
Karl from Australia

Pete from Wisconsin: yeah and based on the price of electricity in Wisconsin and the power use of a typical laptop, it'll be costing 20-30 cents a day to do it, to say nothing for the gradually degrading value of the laptop.

It's an interesting project to do for fun, but people should be under no illusions that it's an easy way to make money.

Oct. 10 2017 05:41 PM
Sam from The West

Hey guys,
It looks like you're getting a lot of hate for this episode from people who don't fully understand what happened and some people even talk about the narrative being undermined by things that actually happened and you had no control over. I just want to make clear that audio surveillance could not possibly compromise this system, so the recorder being in the room and the phone being hacked have no real impact. Also, it seems that many people missed the part where they are doing this again to update it. I do agree that it would be interesting to analyze currency as a concept, but it's not fair to judge this episode because it focused on one idea. This is a format that many of your episodes follow and I personally enjoy it. This was a fascinating piece and I think that most people who feel this way just aren't the type to leave a comment talking about how great this story was. Thanks Radiolab!

Sep. 27 2017 03:12 PM
Pete from Wisconsin

After listening to the podcast my 13 year old took my old laptop and some help from YouTube configured it to mine $.09 per day. Very cool.

Aug. 31 2017 09:13 AM
Alana from Burlington, Ontario

I always feel pretty anonymous when I pay cash for something...

Aug. 19 2017 02:33 PM
Visitor from Colorado

Pleeeease list the music used on your podcast! I especially love the weird techno thing at the end. I would like to hear the whole piece. Who is the artist?

Aug. 17 2017 11:21 AM

Agree with Thomas from Canada, and RDW from Urbana, IL.
Great comments from both.

The idea that a new currency initiative like this would allow a reporter in with her recording equipment and cell phone, when they were having this secret ceremony to set an unbreakable key: No. Why?

Even if they did this in good faith, to show transparency, it was a huge gamble.

Zcash is trading down right now. Bitcoin is up.

Aug. 14 2017 12:42 PM
Equilibrium tip

the most succinct part was when she said she would rather give up her body than her phone. what has this world become?

Aug. 05 2017 06:32 PM
Anna K from NJ

I don't know if it relates in any way but I've noticed Skype behaves strangely. I've had a really creepy conversation with my Ukrainian grandma today. I'm Russian living in NJ and naturally using skype a lot to speak with my relatives. Today it started as usual, grandma mentioned her apples, neighbors, tomatoes, couple of her catch frazes... Then about 5 min into conversation I felt like she is greating someone and not speaking to me but someone else, answering someone's questions but ignoring mine. And I can't hear that other person only my grandma's voice. I was astonished when I realized that it is not my grandma speaking in real time but a playback of whet she was saying from the very begining of our conversation! Word for word everything she said to me 5 min ago! I listened for some time to make sure I wasn't going crazy, I hung up and redialed. My grandma told me that for her our call just discontinued. I told her about my experience and we just continues talking until same thing happened again! About 5 min into conversation I hear a playback of whatever my grandma was saying to me since the begining of that call!!! I can't explain what happened in any other way then our conversation must have been recorded through skype. It is really creepy...

Aug. 05 2017 11:23 AM

I thought that the ceremony idea was interesting, but I'm not sure it merited the whole show. The problem with telling about a boring experience is how much to actually bore the listeners so that they understand without losing them completely. I felt that the balance was off here.
I think I'd have liked to hear more commentary (missed Robert on this one...). The idea of what it takes to build trust is a theme that could have been explored much further, and possibly in some different scenarios (ex: why do we trust paper money in the first place? what happens when a bunch of people decide they don't anymore? what other situations involve this level of trust?).
Most RadioLab episodes do some zooming in and out between big picture and important detail. I felt like this one never got out the panoramic lens. I'm surprised it was a full episode. It would have been a cool short, or part of an episode.

Aug. 03 2017 10:12 PM
Mike C. from Portland, OR

Timeout Radiolab. So, the ultimate goal of any crypto-currency is that, I suppose, it might become the single recognized international currency at some point. This means it has to be trusted. Thus the "crypto" part. And thus we are led to believe that the "ceremony" and it's extremely secure set-up are important to produce the trust factor necessary for this currency to be secure. Then, apparently, and unexplained tap into a google chat that is recording the event goes unresolved and we are led to believe that the creators of this crypto currency had a response akin to "meh" and just forged ahead? Something doesn't make sense here Radiolab. Either you aren't explaining the whole story, or this "crypto" currency's level of security is sh^t. None of this makes sense.

Aug. 03 2017 01:26 AM
Kareninsf from San Francisco

Thank You! I have been a HUGE fan of your show since you started I LOVE YOU. Thank you VERY much for doing the MOST excellent show on ZCash. I have been a Bitcoin enthusiast for a couple years, and you have made me SOOOO happy !! Only complaint.......Robert Krulwich wasn't in this one :(

Aug. 02 2017 06:05 AM
Cheryl from Edwards, CO

So kinda had to laugh at all this "secret location" stuff at the beginning, as I used to live in Boulder. They let slip the name of the hotel, which is about a mile from the CU campus. In the '80s, the hotel, under a different name, had a mega FAC every Friday. I left many a brain cell there, as did most Boulderites of that era. But after all of that secrecy and math and untouched computers, a cell phone left on becomes the focus of the story?

Jul. 30 2017 08:45 AM
BMK from Seattle, WA

I am such a fan, but I must also agree: this episode felt bizarrely flawed as a story/narrative. Surely there has to be some sort of follow up once she handed over the phone, even if the follow up is that Zeek or whatever couldn't figure out what had happened. Even that would feel satisfying?

I also agree that it undermined the trust we were supposed to be giving Morgan for telling us about the importance of this story when it's revealed she doesn't know how to operate her phone in a most basic sense. (I'd have just edited that out).

Lastly, when i looked up the value of Z-cash, it appeared to spoke for just a few days and then tank where it has remained ever since (and at the time this podcast was released). Why not update that figure as well? That's such a misnomer, especially if this is something people can (and supposedly should be based on the podcast's commercial) invest in. To end with it being worth $4000.00 is stupid when you attribute that as the key of it's success---that in became trusted--when it tanked right after and has never recovered. Therefore, people don't trust it as much as Bitcoin or another, it was just a speculative pop and nothing more that died after a short time. Surely you knew that by the time the aired? No?

We just love you guys but this demands some sort of Radiolab "short" to explain yourselves! And then we can all hug it out.

Jul. 28 2017 01:23 PM
Tyler from California

Serious mistake in not explaining how despite all the security protocols a cell phone was allowed in the room. Doesn't add up and undermines the whole episode.

Jul. 28 2017 10:40 AM
Melissa Guzman from las vegas

Man! I wanted to know what the compromising noise thing is about

Jul. 27 2017 07:04 PM
Rob from Washington

Where is the depth and deconstruction which is typical of a Radiolab episode? Was this story sponsored by Zcash? Either way, this episode was a flop. I found this story to be both uninformative and a uninteresting. The climax was as anti-climax as I've ever experienced. Lots of melodrama and hardly any substance on a story which is probably relevant to less than 5% of the population.

Jul. 27 2017 05:31 PM
Emily from Wisconsin

I'm a big fan of this show, but the quality of this piece was so poor that I feel like I must echo the criticisms of other users. You can learn more about cybersecurity from bitcoin's own "protect your privacy" page. The show was ill informed about basic privacy protocols like using multiple wallets or hiding your IP address.

This really did come across like an advertisement for zcash rather than an educational piece. I was excited to learn more about the math and economics and instead heard about wizard hats and pork rinds. Seriously, how were cell phones allowed in the room, and how did the ceremony move forward after they knew it was compromised? Please return to your previous level of quality!

Jul. 26 2017 07:05 PM
Lily from Durham, NC

Is there any way to know what music is played on a Radiolab episode? I'm interested in what the haunting choral music was. Possible to list music credits in subsequent episodes? Thanks!

Jul. 26 2017 06:26 PM
Kim from Ohio

I love you, Radiolabbers, but I had to chime in with a quick correction on this one: Jad made a comparison early in the show between the creation of Zcash and the Immaculate Conception, but it played on the common misunderstanding that the Immaculate Conception was about Jesus being conceived without sex - not true! Theologically, the Immaculate Conception is about Mary being conceived without original sin. Pedantic (and not as exciting), but true.

Since I - and I'm sure many others - have been in the habit of accepting the accuracy of everything you tell me in this podcast, I wanted to make sure you had the right info on this (admittedly tangential) point. And thanks for the many great hours of podcast-listening pleasure!

Jul. 25 2017 02:11 PM
Kristoffer from Sweden

Hey, nice story I thought it was well told.

But I am a bit miffed on how you managed to slaughter the explanation of a zero-proof protocol. It's really very simple and there's really no need for such an convoluted word-salad of an explanation.

An easy example is: Image an magician performing a card trick, the magician proves to you that he is able to find your card in a deck of cards without showing to you how he does the trick, this is essentially it.[1]

If this podcast is about promoting science I think it shouldn't allow itself the tired trope of "Math is sooo complicated". You guys do amazing work, but please don't fall for this kind of sloppyness.

[1] A more thorough explanation is given in "How to explain Zero-Knowledge Protocols to Your Children" by Quisqater et al (Freely avaliable on the web).

Jul. 25 2017 01:13 PM
J from Lansing

Very interesting episode, really enjoyed it! Not perfect obviously. It's more story than scientific examination. But hey, Radiolab has never claimed to be perfect, and even their more sciencey stories are often centered around personal experiences.

Jul. 25 2017 09:28 AM
Tyler Rice from LA

Does someone at Radiolab own Zcash?

I am a long time listener and fan of Radiolab. When I heard the episode "The Ceremony," I was disappointed to find one long marketing ad for Zcash (intentional or not). For background, a brief explanation of bitcoin and privacy concerns was provided. However, the context we needed is that there are actually dozens of cryptocurrencies competing in a cutthroat game for market capitalization, and they will do anything to pump the perceived value of their coin. For the founders and early holders, there are vast sums of money at stake. This episode failed to ask the deeper questions of WHY so much absurd pageantry was performed in "The Ceremony." Since the currency has no inherent value, it's value is based on perception, which you helped them market and advertise. Cryptocurrency markets have become an elaborate pyramid scheme. This episode most likely helped Zooko (and others) get richer. Take a look at the charts, since July 15 (the day the episode aired) Zcash has steadily gained in price.

Additionally, Radiolab failed to make any disclosure with regards to conflict of interest. Even financial reporters that write neutral articles about a given stock give full disclosure of ownership. Did anyone ask Morgen Peck or anyone else involved regarding their financial stake in Zcash? I hope Radiolab does a follow up that brings many of these issues to light. I truly do love the show and believe this was an unintentional hiccup!

Jul. 23 2017 07:12 PM
very important person


This show was the podcast equivalent of being cornered at a cocktail party and being unable to escape from someone telling a story in tedious detail.

Jul. 23 2017 06:16 PM
Donald J Trump from Washington DC

Solid episode. I just wish the producers had gone the extra mile and explained a bit more about what exactly these crypto/digital currencies are and how one can use them and the advantages and disadvantages of them vs cash or traditional credit and debit cards. Lacking this knowledge it was hard for me to figure out just how big of a deal this whole thing was .

Jul. 23 2017 08:58 AM

Great story - but there seems to be a huge discrepancy that is not addressed by radiolab journalists: the group goes into all sorts of extreme lengths to get rid of all electronic devices (even lamps!), but then at the launch of the ceremony they link up via online video chat calls with the other five participants through their personal computers???

Jul. 23 2017 08:34 AM
Alan D from Arcadia, CA

Lived the episode! Keep up the good work!

Jul. 22 2017 01:27 PM
Eric G from Dana Point, CA

Overall, greatly enjoyed it. In the age we are living in, being aware of important security issues and how far people go to keep it secure should be of interest to most people. And yes, I did't understand how her phone could have been left on given the lengths they went to. Also agree that a followup would be of value.

Jul. 21 2017 08:25 PM
victor from Upstate New York

Sounded a little like the Blair Witch Project to me. :-)

Jul. 21 2017 02:52 PM
David Dawson from Meadville, PA

The technical bits reminded me of Cory Doctorow's Little Brother. The Ceremony sounds like a version of the secret beach meeting where a bunch of confidantes met to generate keys for that initial web of trust. Loved this story. Thanks!

Jul. 21 2017 11:58 AM
Jay Williams from Tennessee

I really enjoyed the story. I really helped remind me how completely crazy people are to want more "internet connected" devices in their home. Having an Internet of Things (IoT) is going to be a hacker's playground. A laptop & phone is enough of a privacy invasion.

Jul. 21 2017 11:45 AM
Robert from Portland, OR

Like many others I came here hoping for closure with regard to the apparently hacked cell phone. I will take exception though with the other tone and state that I enjoyed the episode, until it ended with the unanswered questions about this.

Air gaps and DVD's indeed, perhaps the only way to compute with security and privacy in 2017.

Jul. 20 2017 04:35 PM
Tobias from UK

I really love Radiolab, I've been a subscriber since the early years. While I've been denying it for a while, this episode forces me to admit their decline. Early episodes used to be super great, extremely well researched and always left me feeling satisfied.

What happened with this episode? The high-point was someone forgetting to turn their phone off and is supposedly hacked because of this. But what happens next? No security experts are interviewed to at least provide some theory of what might have happened.

Instead, we get a discussion about what privacy means in today's world. Interesting, but it feels like a misstep from what should have followed.

I came here to read through the comments because I was genuinely curious as to if anyone might have had a theory on how the phone was compromised, instead I find many comments suggesting that it isn't just me who feels like this episode was shallow.

Radiolab, if you're listening, please get back to the rigour of earlier episodes. That is what made you popular, if you lose quality you will also lose listeners. This is the only podcast I consistently listen to because of the thorough reporting.

Jul. 20 2017 01:14 PM
CK Dexter Haven from RI

Why was Morgen Peck's phone left on? It was never addressed.

Jul. 20 2017 12:54 PM
Paul Sypek

Forgive me Ms. Webster but I can't get past the "was likes and the I'm likes and the he's likes and the like, like, likes. It sets my teeth on edge. You're obviously an extremely intelligent lady who unfortunately speaks "like" a valley girl. As a result I bailed on the entire episode. Please help me get over this. I miss out on so much because of it.

Jul. 19 2017 11:59 PM

This episode hard to listen to. I couldn't get through it. Everyone in the piece thinks they're soooo funny - I guess you had to be there, because they're really, really not. Too bad. This is an interesting subject that's not going away.

Jul. 19 2017 04:05 PM
Vimal Menon from New York, NY

Guy you are killing me. Morgan seems compromised to me, her obsession with this dude and his wizard status is nuts. To me, her reporting was biased right from the start. Can someone explain to me what I have been listening to for the last 45 minutes? The beauty of Radio Lab has been the ability to breakdown complex ideas and more importantly do stories that people actually care about. This seems like an individual (i.e. Morgan) who was desperate to make a story out of a nonevent. Also let's say she did actually think this was a story, is it improbable that Zooko did actually hack her phone in an attempt to freak her out and make her feel like there was a story here. I turn to radio lab every 2 weeks in the hopes of listening to an intelligent and thought provoking story. I would appreciate not been disappointed like this again.

Jul. 18 2017 02:39 PM
Dave from Baltimore

What a great magic trick. I have never seen so much misdirection in my life. So in the end he had a DVD with a number known to him, switched it out with the one so laboriously produced and now knows the exact number used.

Jul. 18 2017 10:08 AM
Kylem1701 from San Diego

I found it hilarious that all these dweebs trusted a woman to tell their story when they didn't allow a single one to be part of the process of creating the actual currency.

Jul. 18 2017 01:22 AM
Bill from Burlington

20 Minutes of advertising for Z cash? What Great Podcast !

Jul. 17 2017 04:05 PM
Will from kentucky

hmmm. Just from listening to the episode, she said she doesn't run apps on her phone... except she had said earlier that she got a message on Signal? a messaging app she got from Zooko?

Jul. 17 2017 01:02 PM
Isaac from Burbank, CA

Um, where's the other half of the episode? You know, the part where someone talks to experts and does deep science-informed analysis and presents a hypothesis for what may have happened, what it means, how privacy interacts with our world, and what the future holds for zcash et al. This episode ended and I checked my phone because I was sure the app had crashed or something. If the recent quality decline is the result of outsourcing episodes because it's too much for a small team, then I would much rather have 3 great episodes that stick to Radiolab's model of scientific curiosity than 10 mediocre ones like this. While it was a very intriguing kernel for a Radiolab episode, this was half-baked.

Jul. 17 2017 02:34 AM
Nic from Canberra, AUS

Despite the criticisms in the comments I enjoyed this episode. It introduced some amazing realities of cyber currency to me. *****

Jul. 17 2017 01:59 AM
Alex W

Kind of silly to still do digital key ceremonies / generation when exploits like semmiaccurate exist in the wild.

Unless you fab your own chips and write your own hw/sw, you do not know who is watching.


Jul. 17 2017 12:17 AM
Tony Lima from Silicon Valley, CA

I'm just a dumb economist. And I'm well past retirement age. But even I would know enough not to allow an Android phone anywhere near that room. Among iPhone, Blackberry, and Android, the last is the most vulnerable to hacking. Better question: why didn't they build a Faraday cage and put all the phones inside? It strikes me that they could have used an actual electrical engineer on the team who understood this stuff. If I know about this, someone in that room should have known, too.

Tony Lima

Jul. 16 2017 09:51 PM
Mark Johnson from SLC

This used to be a great show.

Jul. 16 2017 09:09 PM
Dan from Sunapee, New Hampshire

Nevermind, just noticed it lower in the thread! Rachmaninov's Rhapsody. Thanks Nabil!

Jul. 16 2017 08:06 PM
Dan from Sunapee, New Hampshire

Does anyone know what song is played @21:35 (until ~21:55)? I know it's an immensely famous song but I can't seem to Shazam it and not knowing the name of this song is killing my entire family! Any help would be greatly appreciated. As was this episode I should say...
Thanks so much in advance to anyone that can help!!

Jul. 16 2017 08:03 PM
Pixelboy from Toronto

I find it very odd that Morgan a tech reporter did not know how to view running apps on her phone. Her behavior after was suspicious as well. Radiolab did not do their usual in depth reporting. The episode seemed unfinished.

Jul. 16 2017 05:43 PM
Ken L from NY

Did this feel like a BS techno ghost story to anyone else? This feels like one of those ghost shows on Sci-fi channel. I felt like this was a lot more smoke-and-mirrors and drama than was necessary.

Jul. 16 2017 09:59 AM

How the fuk do you find me. I have never used the same bitcoin wallet twice. I use actually make a new account for every transaction.

I've probably left a bitcoin in a wallet when it was less than 1 coin a dollar. I cant find it again but these lost wallets are now worth 1ks of money. but I'll never go back. - at the time I abandoned a dollar.

How will you find me.

A basic misunderstanding of users. Idiot.

Jul. 15 2017 11:22 PM
Z from Lincoln, NE

Is there a version of that song behind the ending credits available? I can't get it out of my head.

Jul. 15 2017 06:33 PM
Nabil from Toronto

@Music Nut

The music played around the 20min mark is the 18th variation of Rachmaninov's Rhapsody on a Theme of Paganini. It sounds like it was slowed down a bit. Here's the link:

Jul. 15 2017 02:03 PM
Roger from Boston

So what did happen with her phone? What had been done to it and any theories on who was behind it if it was something nefarious? Hopefully you all are working on a follow-up to this story.

Jul. 15 2017 12:19 PM
Thomas from Canada

Claims to be strives utmost security; Buys modern computer with "management engine" back door.

"The ME consists of an ARC processor core (replaced with other processor cores in later generations of the ME), code and data caches, a timer, and a secure internal bus to which additional devices are connected, including a cryptography engine, internal ROM and RAM, memory controllers, and a direct memory access (DMA) engine to access the host operating system’s memory as well as to reserve a region of protected external memory to supplement the ME’s limited internal RAM. The ME also has network access with its own MAC address through an Intel Gigabit Ethernet Controller." - libreboot

"The Active Management Technology (AMT) application, part of the Intel “vPro” brand, is a Web server and application code that enables remote users to power on, power off, view information about, and otherwise manage the PC. It can be used remotely even while the PC is powered off (via Wake-on-Lan). Traffic is encrypted using SSL/TLS libraries, but recall that all of the major SSL/TLS implementations have had highly publicized vulnerabilities. The AMT application itself has known vulnerabilities, which have been exploited to develop rootkits and keyloggers and covertly gain encrypted access to the management features of a PC. Remember that the ME has full access to the PC’s RAM. This means that an attacker exploiting any of these vulnerabilities may gain access to everything on the PC as it runs: all open files, all running applications, all keys pressed, and more." -libreboot

"In summary, the Intel Management Engine and its applications are a backdoor with total access to and control over the rest of the PC. The ME is a threat to freedom, security, and privacy" -libreboot

The whole point of the "ceremony" was to instill market confidence by showing how secure they are. With there target audience being those who are most concerned about security which are just the people who are concerned with ME. I find it depressing that they did not take this into account when buying the computer.

Jul. 15 2017 07:20 AM
Music Nut from VA

What is the title of the classical piece played just brfore the break? Beautiful and perfectly placed.

Jul. 15 2017 12:28 AM
Jonah from Madison, WI

I'll echo some of the other comments after just listening to this story. It really didn't feel like most all of the RadioLab podcasts I've heard - and I've heard every single one since 2002. A lot of questions came to mind that should have been touched on, and it seemed like the abrupt ending due to carelessness of the reporter not turning her phone off shouldn't have been the climax.

Check out ZCash's website to get a look at their algorithms and science. I wish they'd spent more time talking about the science and complexity of the system, as well has had taken a more in depth and skeptical look into the reason for the phone feedback and the possible reasons and power of the NSA, Google, Governments [or others] to hack a reporter's Android phone. I still love listening to podcasts from years back, so please keep it up!!

Jul. 14 2017 09:52 PM
CC from Tacoma, WA

This felt like an incomplete episode. There are so many questions I had after the conclusion and was baffled by the lack of depth in the story; it was an interesting piece of a story but by no means a whole story. Additionally, I agree with RDW from Urbana, IL and their comments. Absolutely love Radiolab, but this piece just needed more, much more.

Jul. 14 2017 07:29 PM
Linck from San Diego, CA

Is it just me or does Zooko kinda sound like Bill Nye?

Jul. 14 2017 06:05 PM

People who liked this episode should read Cryptonomicon!

Jul. 14 2017 04:23 PM
RDW from Urbana, IL

This episode of Radiolab might epitomize how disappointing the program has become and how far it's strayed from its curious, critical origins.

Spoiler alert: During the great reveal, when it turns out the journalist's phone has been used as a listening device -- A LISTENING DEVICE -- we get sighs and ughs and references to cats and then an excruciatingly shallow conversation about personal privacy.

Think this was just a random, thrill-seeking hacker? If you listen to the episode, I suppose that's what you'd walk away with. You wouldn't think: NSA. You wouldn't think: organized crime syndicate. But notice that in order for this hack to occur, an incredible amount of coordinated effort would have had to take place -- to know about the currency project, who would be involved in "the ceremony," and what devices they would be carrying with them. That isn't the work of a bedroom hacker.

The Radiolab of old would have had interviewed someone with expert knowledge about state-sponsored surveillance techniques to inform the conversation. They might have said: yes, it's quite plausible that every journalist reporting about cyber-security is under routine surveillance now. The tools exist to do that, and so is the political will.

Instead we get, from the producer: "Then it just dawned on me -- duh, like, her privacy isn't just hers." And from the journalist: "I almost feel like I don't have a right to give over that phone if I haven't talked to the people that that would be exposing." Notice, they are having this conversation as a rebuttal to the idea that the anyone should study her phone about how the hack was done. Seemingly lost on everyone is the fact that a hacker just presumably went through every scrap of information on that phone. Why assume otherwise?

But, no, not a critical word about how careless the journalist is about cyber-security generally, her own in particular, and the true scope of the systematic threats to privacy. Not even a "we learned an important lesson today" moment at the end. In fact, as a kind of gesture of resignation about the whole privacy issue, the journalist just gives her phone to Wilcox anyway. Some lesson.

An important topic with a stunning story to go with it -- treated carelessly, told badly. This plays like satire, not journalism.

Jul. 14 2017 02:40 PM
stephen webster

yo this was the most boring episode of all time. like what even happened.

Jul. 14 2017 02:14 PM
John from US

I read the words "Molly Webster" and "Brooklyn".


Jul. 14 2017 11:08 AM
Gordon from Massachusetts

David W: Zcash has never been compromised. What you are thinking about is Zcoin, a completely different currency, based on a completely different protocol. Zerocoin != Zerocash != Zcash.

Jul. 14 2017 11:05 AM
David W from New Jersey

How could you do a whole story on zerocoin without discussing the hack that happened last February when a hacker stole and cashed out about $500,000 worth of zerocoins?

It was a "software error" as is normally claimed. The "protocol is secure". This is the biggest problem with most crypto currencies. Software is hard – especially when it comes to cryptography. The protocol is theoretical and may be perfect, but protocols must be implemented with software which is full of errors.

There have been hundreds of hacks stealing millions of dollars in various cryto currencies. If a national currency had these issues, its price would plummet and no one would use it. However, these crypto currencies never fail because of the idealism of the holders and the few whose entire fortunes are based upon their cryto-holdings.

Jul. 14 2017 10:49 AM
Lena from Germany

Interesting story. But what didn't make sense to me is that they took so many security precautions (unplugging the tv, moving the hotel room's electronics to the bathroom, etc) but they did keep their cellphones in the room?? That seems odd. Or did I miss something?

Jul. 14 2017 10:42 AM
John T Bolds from Prudhoe Bay, Alaska

Great story by Morgan, I got the creeps just listening to her experience!

The little remix at the end would make a great ringtone!

Thanks as always to the team for an informative and really fun listen.

Jul. 14 2017 08:35 AM

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