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Cut and Run

Friday, November 01, 2013 - 05:00 PM

Legions of athletes, sports gurus, and scientists have tried to figure out why Kenyans dominate long-distance running. In this short, we stumble across a surprising, and sort of terrifying, explanation.

At the 1968 summer Olympics in Mexico City, Kipchoge Keino overcame a gall bladder infection to win gold in the 1500 meter race. Since then, one particular group of Kenyans - the Kalenjin - has produced an astonishing number of great long-distance runners. Gregory Warner - NPR's East Africa correspondent - takes Jad and Robert down a rabbit hole of theories about what exactly is going on in Kalenjin country.  

David Epstein and John Manners help Greg untangle a web of potential factors - from something in the cornmeal to simple economics. And, after talking to a young Kalenjin runner named Elly Kipgogei, Greg discovers a somewhat disturbing explanation for Kalenjin running prowess that actually makes him want to get on the treadmill and push himself just a little harder. 


Check out a video of Kipchoge Keino's 1968 Olympic 1500m run:


David Epstein, Mr. John Manners and Gregory Warner


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Comments [83]

Laura Paglia from Marbella, Spain

I am an avid follower of Radiolab, I have started from the very fist podcast in 2008 and am still working my way up. This, as many of your works, is just great, I loved the story and the theories, they are usually food for thought.
Although I wish that, since the subject was raised and since it is something that affects millions of (usually unwilling and very young) people, you would have spoken about female and male genital mutilation.
I fully subscribe to the words of George Sunday from New Jersey posted on May. 08 2017, and I'm sure the issue was raised over and over again in the comment section. I understand that it would not have been feasible to go into the subject in this podcast, but why was the issue not addressed in following podcasts?
To me, it seems that the matter of mutilating the sexual organs of many, many people as a cultural ritual, as something that doesn't belong to "us" because it happens in Africa, as something that has been done probably for thousands of years, does not justify simply skipping over it as if it were a footnote, a detail lacking importance in a story about runners and genetics. It might be lacking importance as a central part of THIS story, but again, why was the subject not picked up in later episodes?
Please, please do. And yes, it must be a personal story for Jad and Robert. But I think that both are brave enough to look into it, and Radiolab is followed by too many people to miss this chance.
Thank you for all your work.

Oct. 18 2017 04:35 AM
Solomon from Oxford

Really enjoyed the podcast but they missed the best bit about the Kip Keino Story!!

The morning of 1500m race in which he won gold, Keino only decided to run roughly 1 hour before the start of the race. He caught the bus from where he was staying to the stadium. The bus was then caught in traffic, so, in fear of missing the race, Keino decided to run the remaining 2 miles to the stadium with all of his gear!! After running the distance to the stadium LESS THAN AN HOUR BEFORE THE START OF THE RACE, he then went on to win it!
This was a story that I absolutely loved as a child growing up in Kenya. Keino showed his dominance over the distance in a way that few have been able to recapitulate over any distance since. Heroic.

Sep. 29 2017 06:36 AM
George Sunday from New Jersey

I am sure more than a few people will have a cow because of my comments, but I don't believe in any form of mutilation, be it male or female. But I find it very interesting how the western media and radio lab report one as female genital mutilation and the other as circumcision, as if it is any less mutilation. I am sure people have their own convictions either religious or otherwise and come up with their own theories, but the bottom line is mutilation performed on mostly minors and new born who have no say in the matter. So why take a high ground, some how Male genital mutilation (Circumcision) is superior and acceptable than FGM? Just because you say so?....there are so many cultures who do so many things to their bodies....starting from simple things as tattoos to tribes in Africa and other parts of the world who do more serious body altering things.....who made anyone to decide what is correct and incorrect?

May. 08 2017 05:46 PM
Dorothea from Innsbruck, Austria

I am usually a fan of Radiolab, but I think it is worth sharing that

FGM is recognized internationally as a violation of the human rights of girls and women. It reflects deep-rooted inequality between the sexes, and constitutes an extreme form of discrimination against women. It is nearly always carried out on minors and is a violation of the rights of children.


May. 24 2016 01:54 PM
Kagai from Washington, DC

I'm a huge fan of Radiolab, but I somehow missed listening to this episode until someone brought it to my attention.

As a Kenyan (by birth and upbringing), this episode, and many similar ones that address African, and in particular Kenyan topics, are especially intriguing to me.

My two cents: almost every theory I've heard, on why Kenyan people are particularly good at running, can be taken apart, if you actually take the time to play devil's advocate - but there is something to the theory on genetics.

Let me explain - first of all, yes, most (but not all) Kenyan long-distance runners in the Olympics, and other major marathon events, are of the Kalenjin tribe(particularly the Nandi subtribe) - but there are actually a few other tribes in the mix here and there. Restricting research to Kalenjin people and culture does not explain why other Kenyan tribes also have good runners - as compared to other countries.

But if we were to dwell on the Kalenjin - researchers tend to ignore the fact that there are plenty of Kenyan runners who were raised in Nairobi, or other central metropolitan cities that do not have concentrations of one tribe in particular - therefore theorizing that they were all raised in high altitudes, is misleading. A lot of my Kalenjin friends live in Nairobi but only visit their parent's villages "in the country" maybe once or twice a year - yet they're better runners anyway. How so?

Which also brings us to the point about the grueling circumcision rituals - that is actually not specific to the Kalenjin. A lot of other Kenyan tribes such as the Luhya, Kikuyu, Kisii, etc - have just as harsh, circumcision rituals - but its worthy to note that only a small percentage of people, in most tribes, born post 70's, actually ever go through those ceremonies (most just do the "hospital option"). Personally, among all my Kenyan friends, there are less than five people I know of, who actually did a tribal circumcision. It's simply a non-determining factor in my opinion.

Now, to the issue of tribal genetics - there may be actually something there - but not in the way most western researchers think about it. On the surface, African tribes may only seem like people differentiated only by a common language or culture, but they are, in fact, physically different, to the people of that country. Yes, there are a few people who don't conform to a physical stereotype - but, for the most part, Kenyans (and a lot of other black Africans) can tell each others tribe, simply by physical appearance (clothes, and accent notwithstanding).

So the main question is, how, or why, can I tell that someone is a particular tribe, simply by their physical appearance, yet we may have been born and raised in the same, tribe-neutral, city? It has something to do with the origins of their tribe's ancestors - how and where they lived, how their bodies adapted to those regions, several hundred years ago.

Jan. 11 2016 05:48 PM
Fatma from Copenhagen

Wow... this comment section is unbelievable. How can such a nuanced and balanced (if lacking in scientific merit) episode produce such dramatic reactions. Surely, you guys don't expect Jad and Rob to go into a lecture about how horrible eugenics, FGM, or children beating is every time either is mentioned. It's not like their listeners are so stupid that they would take up either practice just because they heard it mentioned on Radiolab.

Grow up, people!

Sep. 16 2015 01:32 AM
Catniss J. Plath

This story was so intriguing. I cannot understand how these genetic factors work. Who knew Kenyans could run faster because of pain. This story is one reason why we should stop looking at the negative features in cultures and races, and start looking at the positive.

Apr. 06 2015 03:49 PM
Janice from Brooklyn

I love how this story dissected the contributors to the success of this group of Kenyan people and made it so much more understandable. I have always thought it could only help children and young adults (American) to learn how to handle pain in a controlled and not extreme way.. it's certainly worthy of discussion. I have two specific notes as well:

1) the analysis of the biological/physiological features of the runners is no different than all the (extensive) anatomical analysis of Michael Phelps physique as a swimmer.

2) as you are men, maybe it seemed unimportant, maybe it seemed secondary to you , not relevant to the story... but when you talk about adult circumcision in some detail,involving the foreskin of the penis, and the gloss over clitoridectomy (as if the same)my alarms went off. Maybe you forgot that women are listening to the show. As we all could actually "see" you grimacing while discussing the "bow" in the foreskin... you all just mentioned clitoridectomy as if it were a scraped knee....

c'mon guys....

Mar. 28 2015 01:45 PM

Anyone who's a competitive runner at any level knows that the answer to making us better runners is not that we need more pain. Trust me, we've mastered that. If there's one thing that is true of long-distance runners even at the amateur level it is that we know how to push our bodies to the limit all the time. I see runners pass out, vomit, race through various injuries and broken bones, and end up in ambulances all the time. Ask any high school or collegiate cross country or track runner; it's just the nature of the sport. Sure, most of us haven't undergone genital mutilation to the degree the Kenyans have, but please don't dare to imply that if we push our bodies harder, then we can win gold in the Olympics. It's true that running is just as much a mental as it is a physical sport, but some of the toughest runners I have seen aren't necessarily the fastest, and no matter how tough they are they can only reach a certain point because of their physical limitations. The fact of the matter is that many of us buy into the "American dream"--that we can become whatever and whomever we want if we simply set our minds to it and try hard enough, but that's just not true and a completely unfair expectation to place upon ourselves. Sure, I am a runner and I know that becoming more mentally tough has has caused me to improve immensely, but I know that no matter how tough I am and how hard I try I'm not gonna win gold at the Olympics.

Jan. 25 2015 04:15 PM
Lorelei C. Whitman

"If I die, I will die on the track." These are very inspiring words from the famous Olympic runner Kip Keino. Suffering from a major gull bladder infection he was told not to run again during the 1968 Olympics. This Kalenjin runner, which makes up only six percent of the world's population, had determination. He ran in the 5000 meter race and was told that if he did that again his gull bladder would burst. With the with the possibility of death looming in the back of his mind, Keino went to compete in the 1500 meter race ending up with gold. The question was how does someone endure this much pain and just lay it on the back burner. Many of the greatest athletes like Keino come from a small tribe in Kenya. When one would visit the town, there would be a patter of footsteps in the morning from everyone running. But this unusual habit didn't make for the fact of what Kip Keino accomplished. It was the pain bearring tradition that the teenagers faced to be accepted into the tribe. They had to be so calm and not show the pain that they were experiencing otherwise they would be called a coward. This is an interesting connection to Keino and the mental ability runners need to push themselves. I enjoyed this podcast as it really opened up my mind to the world and the harsh realization of other cultures.

Jan. 25 2015 09:15 AM
Loreli E Bond

I thought that this was crazy! Kenyan runners run faster and better because they can handle pain better. Very interesting. Also their skinny lower legs help too, it is easy for then to swing their legs faster. The whole process that males and females in a certain tribe is very harsh and would even be considered inhumane, but it is what they do. And Tribe members are ridiculed if they do not go through with the customs. These "customs" include intense circumstances in which they feel immense pain, but they have to remain still and emotionless, even at a young teenage age. Thus creating a group of people that are very resistant to pain and therefore do better at sports, especially running. The tribe members run every morning, too. I think that this immunity to pain greatly contributes to their success. Running has more to it than physical abilities. It involves telling your brain that it isn't hard and that you can go farther and run faster.

Nov. 11 2014 06:37 AM
Upton D. Wilder

I found this story really interesting. As a runner myself, I have always wondered why Kenyans dominate the running world. In this podcast, they attempt to analyze that question scientifically. Many theories are brought forth: body structure, natural selection, diet. But then they talk about the mental pain barrier. This is something that all runners go through and something that I have experienced many times. You don't become a faster runner until you learn to push past a new limit of pain. Once you do, you are mentally strong enough to run at that pace again and again. In the podcast, they talked about the pain involved in the ritual of becoming a man in the Kalenjin tribe. The amount of pain these people have to withstand is incredible and inspiring. And I think it reveals the answer to the question. The Kenyans are just willing to push through more pain than we are. Distance running is an interesting sport because it reveals the character of the runner. If you are up to the challenge and willing to put in the effort, than it will show in life outside the track. When it comes down to it, distance running is all about who is willing to hurt more.

Nov. 09 2014 12:03 PM
Upton C. Gatsby from Florida

I think that the Kalenjin have multiple factors that are working for them. There is a genetic advantage to them. Its a very touchy subject and one that we don't like to think about but it is there. However I believe that this is not much of an advantage. Someone who has the prerequisite to be an incredible runner will still lose to someone who does not but runs more often. I think it is more of the fact that these people are raised to be runners. Their heros are all runners and they see this as a way to get out of their lives. They also run constanlty, to school, from school, to almost anywhere they are going. And to go to a further extent, these people are use to pain. From early childhood, they are put through horrible rituals where they are put through excruciating pain. So a little pain from running is nothing to them.

Nov. 03 2014 08:11 PM

I found this podcast very interesting. First off its something that I do not normally think about. I have never once asked myself why are Kenyans fast runners, but now that the question was presented to me it seems like a very logical question. The statistics were some what mind blowing with how many runners have achieved what few if any americans or others from around the world have achieved. Then the explanation on why and how they have become fast runners was somewhat disturbing. I would not want to live in a place that decides how manly you are based on how much pain you can endure, as I would break almost immediately. I think about the people and parents who watch and do the punishing during the hard time in the teenage years, I don't know how any body could watch another person suffer so much. Overall I thought that this was very interesting and opened my eyes to different cultures.

Nov. 03 2014 06:29 PM
Lancelot M. Gatsby from Kenya

The beginning story was very intriguing and I had never heard it before which hooked me even more upon hearing it. Furthermore it is truly an inspiration to hear this story of agony and triumph and it is really motivational. The whole idea of expanding your pain threshold is amazing to me, because clearly it has worked for them. I would not say that I agree to the idea of the ritual that they do, yet I agree to the idea of pushing your own limits past just normal amounts of pain. Also looking at the idea of an almost natural selection type ritual has formed this culture into a stoic, less painful, and strong breed of running men. The perseverance through pain is needed in every sport, especially those using ridiculous amounts of cardio for long periods of time. It is so interesting to think that this culture bred perfect running machines for many generations and it seems as though it will continue.

Oct. 27 2014 06:50 PM
Ayn A. Tennyson from Oviedo, FL

It is fascinating to listen and read about others' opinions and theories regarding superior talent, and trying to find an explanation to make sense of it. People don't take into consideration that genetics may have little to do with ethic abilities. Kenyans may be faster than other races because their culture uses personal speed to travel or deliver items. Americans are not as fast because of the different transportation services. People show off their talents and abilities because it is the root of their culture and where they came from, not where their blood is from.

Oct. 27 2014 01:53 PM
Harriet S. Coelho from Florida

I've always been fascinated with the difference between natural talent and learned talent. If someone has learned talent, do they have to start learning from the moment they are able to take in knowledge coherently? Does that make it no different from natural talent in that respect? Thinking about how different people are from one another is both a happy and sad fact.

Oct. 19 2014 03:03 PM

This is what is preventing us from moving on as a species and society. You can't talk about anything related to genetics without people throwing a fit about it. People today try to find things to be offended about, even though they really have no reason to be upset. Why can't we have civil discussion about the cultural and genetic reasons that may play a part in how one race is superior at a certain task? Different races are different. We will one day have to accept that.

Sep. 11 2014 04:40 PM

People love to believe that you can achieve everything if you just work hard enough. However, who participated in some form of sports competition will have met people who are just better than you. You will not surpass them even if you work as hard as you can. And I think deep down most of us know that. Or does anyone think he can even qualify for the 100 m race at the Olympic Games or even just the Nationals when he just stands up from the couch and trains hard for several years? Do you think you can play in the NFL if you just work hard?
I really enjoyed the book "The Sports Gene", because it talks about something that is known by every athlete, but is not accepted by at least some part of the society. Life is not fair. And no you maybe not have the basic requirements to be in the top 5% of athletes in a certain sport. But you can still improve by 300% or so in comparison to before you started.

So the ability to tolerate pain is a part of endurance sport, but a 220 pound man will still suck at it no matter how much pain he can take. It will only allow him to run very far, very slowly. In contrast to the conclusion of the podcast I find it misleading and possibly damaging to assume that just more pain will mean more gain. Rather learn from experienced coaches how to train with quality to improve in your chosen sport instead of just killing yourself. Training is a process where each time a little step is taken towards a certain goal. It does not mean to work yourself out.

The coach Dan John divided athletes in four quadrants. Quadrant 1 are pupils learning all kinds of sport at school. Quadrant 2 are collision sports such as american football played on a professional level. Quadrant 3 is where most of us are who listen to this podcast. We don't do much and we don't do it well. Quadrant 4 are specialists such as sprinters or weightlifters. That is rare air and no if you are not cut out to be one of them you won't be - ever. To train like an athlete in quadrant 4 is for most of us a really stupid idea leading to injury and disappointment.

May. 30 2014 06:06 AM
Thijs from DenmarkHolland

I'm baffled by the comments, by the political correctness, by the disgusting false feminism, by the relentless taboo on genetic variation, by the cross-cultural sense of supremacy by morally judging cultures so bluntly. As if nobody is allowed to discuss genital adjustment without a moral stance, not even for the sake of a general description. As if nobody can highlight genetic compositions according to external and internal pressures, because it supposedly ignores real-world eugenics. As if nobody can empathize with perceptions by other groups, without a false humanistic scale to preach by, even if the empathy doesn't mean alignment, but is merely a method to explore. The comments display one giant sickening bias of unreflected abuse of intellectual tools and terminology just to act on self-pity. While the intentions may be good. It's good to filter out such supposed terribleness. I'm all up for pointing out by deconstructing; he imperialistic, implicitly racist, the objectifying. Yet, this show, the radiolab folks might sometimes use blunt metaphors (calling mosquito's the resilient vietcong for instance). But nowhere near all the con-cocked layers of attention seeking bullshitters as in these comments, as they mutilate science, masking their hidden agenda's.

May. 20 2014 05:35 AM
NCC from Vancouver, WA

I’m insulted by this show. I am so sorry and disappointed to have heard the most ignorant and glorified version of female mutilation. Put your tribe through whatever thorns and sticks you wish, but the FACT is most female “circumcisions” are done to eliminate the female sensitivity in females and make them subservient to their husband. Moreover, the circumcision you may envision a male going through is vastly different than female circumcision. It is MOST ACCURATE to call it clitorectomy (CLITORIS REMOVAL) and compare it to penectomy (PENIS REMOVAL), not male circumcision. Look it up. Be educated. Advocate for the exploited and abused…

May. 18 2014 04:13 AM

I just wanted to voice my opinions on this misguided short. Two elements of this podcast made me queasy: (1) the normalization (and perhaps glorification) of genital mutilation; (2) the proposal that real-world eugenics gets results. Even more maddening is presenting us with a sound physical explanation before dismissing it to move on to these tasteless topics.

May. 16 2014 11:54 AM

Throughout the show 'female circumcision' was called 'female genital mutilation' yet 'male circumcision' was used consistently instead of 'male genital mutilation.' Why the double standard? It's ok to mutilate male genitals but not female ones?

May. 16 2014 05:20 AM
Andrew from Minneapolis, MN

To those who believe pain does not play at least some role in the success of Kenya's running program, enroll in a 5K and trying to match the pace of the lead runners, at least for the first mile or so. Did that hurt?

It's the same in other endurance sports: pain is a part of the game; if you don't develop mental strategies for dealing with it, you will lack competitive advantage.

Is tribal circumcision the only way to learn to cope with pain? Probably not. But the point is made it's part of the package, no pun intended. This said, being able to deal with pain is no substitute for training or genetic ability.

Study the Tarahumara people in northern Mexico for an example of a tribal people who are more lighthearted in their approach to running. Although they have not been as successful in formal competition as the Kenyans, they remain some of the best indigenous runners in the world, at least in ultramarathon distances.

May. 14 2014 01:34 PM
Rochelle Gaertner from Florida

It's an interesting thought for good running from Kenyans comes from natural selection. I believe that they work just as hard as any other athlete to get to where they are to be able to compete in the Olympics, even if they are forced to run for a month. Any person CAN do it, it's just not socially accepted in the western culture.

May. 07 2014 12:09 AM

This podcast intrigued me because it involved eugenics of a Kenyan tribe that is know for their runners. After listening to the possible explanations as to why the Kalenjin are such fast runners it is possible that genetics plays a role in athletic ability. People are hesitant to admit that there could be differentiating traits between different races that provide them to have strong possibilities to become a good athlete.Genetics are not the only factors that determine a good athlete,such as mental capability to endure pain. Kipchoge Keino proved he had a strong tolerance for pain by running multiple races with a gallbladder infection. The ritual the Kalenjin have to go through after puberty to prove their strength is described as unbearable beatings and painful test of endurance.Everyone is born with a different body type, maybe its a possibility that our ethnic backgrounds play a bigger role than we thought.

Apr. 24 2014 08:35 PM

This radiolab was very interesting and piqued my interest from the start. The Kenyan's genetics and form of exercising increase their ability to be one of the fastest race of humans. There are other African people that are just as fast as well. Its very intriguing to look at genetics and see what makes them as fast as they are.

Apr. 19 2014 06:36 PM

Isn't this why some cultures appear to be better at some things than others? The Germans seem to be masters of all things engineered, the French art, the English literature, and so on. The pride of a culture has a reciprocal relationship with the expectations a culture places on its citizens. We know the height of a particular tribe is enforced through cultural norms as well. In short, it seems as though we are breeding ourselves for specific capabilities.

Apr. 16 2014 07:49 PM
lions20 from Oviedo

I believe that multiple factors come into play. Both genetics and the rituals Kenyan's perform increase their running ability. Genetics allow them to move faster due to their fast twitch muscle fibers, and their rituals allow them to endure pain for a longer timespan that the average human.

Apr. 03 2014 05:40 PM
Chazz from Earth

@Steve From Georgia: I think Grayhounds are faster than Saint Bernards because Saint Bernards spend too much time sitting on the couch watching TV and eating donuts.

Mar. 18 2014 12:39 PM

The podcast made it seem like it's simply this small tribe. Ethiopian long distance legend: Haile Gebrselassie
Somali: Mo Farah.

Ethiopians have dominated at the 10,000 meters along with Kenyans. I don't think it's just the isolated tribe. It's obviously the region.

Feb. 24 2014 12:40 AM
Steve from Georgia

I suppose Greyhounds are faster than Saint Bernards because of some cultural tolerance to pain, or perhaps emotional scars from getting neutered.

Feb. 03 2014 12:46 PM

Why are people scared to admit that there are different genetics between races? It is science and can be proven.

We are so focused on everything being 'fair' and continue to deny our physical differences to the point of ignoring scientific evidence. There is practically a religion where people deny that our genetics have anything to do with our capabilities.

Jan. 09 2014 11:43 AM

@elevit, it's so annoying that people like you write these long misguided diatribes that make it clear that you didn't even finish the episode (no Kenyans, huh?) and then never come back to eat crow--er, I mean, learn from your mistakes.

Jan. 02 2014 05:53 PM

What is the song at the end?

Dec. 23 2013 12:54 PM
Alexander from Toronto, Canada

Great episode but what's with the painfully high squeak (at 10:01) in the audio. Heard it in a couple of other episodes, too. OUCH. Just me?

Dec. 19 2013 07:44 PM

elevit, i'm not sure you understand what eugenics, genetics, or racism are.
also, why do you say they should have had a Kalenjin on? they DID! the last quarter or so of the episode is just talking to Elly Kipgogei. he spoke about his experience with the ritual and his views on passing the perseverance (which may or may not be attributable to it) to his sons without the use of it.

in what way is this similar to a racist joke ? what is racist about this episode at all?

fully agree with whambot. they don't condone or condemn anything that this culture does at all. they are completely neutral and just address whether a particular practice that's been around for awhile produces cultural and genetic pressure which predisposes people to a particular talent.

in addition, to those saying that radiolab didn't consider alternatives or should to this or that in their research, radiolab is not conducting a study. they're exploring one possible hypothesis at a very colloquial level. they go out of their way to say that any athletic prowess is attributable to a whole host of factors. radiolab doesn't do studies! they present contemporary and credible theories to the laymen in an interesting and amazing way. this episode is no different.

the only part i felt a little weird about was not addressing the female circumcision at all, which obviously (from our western vantage point) has horrifying moral implications. but i think they probably thought this wasn't the appropriate venue to address that issue.

Dec. 06 2013 03:37 PM

Omg the title of this short takes a whole new meaning after hearing about the circumcision part.

Dec. 04 2013 06:00 PM

I've made an account just to say how ridiculous this comment section is.

Some people are offended that Jad and Rob didn't address the genetic aspects enough, while at the same time some people are offended that they even brought up genetic aspects in the first place. Some people are offended that Jad and Rob didn't give an ethical opinion about the castration practices, and some people are offended that they did. Some people are angry that they didn't speak with enough Kalenjin. Some people are angry that they spoke with *too many* Kalenjin or Kalenjin related people.

Some people are angry that they didn't do numerous, peer-reviewed case studies to prove things that have already been proven-- as if that's even what Radiolab does in the first place! Radiolab speaks to experts and interviews them and lets them tell their stories-- and that's what happened here.

It's like.... Radiolab presented this story with a pretty neutral tone, and yet you have people on both sides saying they're extremists! Somehow, according to the comments, they've managed to not only perpetuate racist and colonialist ideas about East African cultures, but they've also managed to support and promote unsavory aspects of those cultures at the same time?

Unbelievable. This was a good short and this whole comment section is off the wall.

Dec. 03 2013 02:18 PM
Dave in Nairobi from Nairobi, Kenya

Poor logic. The team put forth this idea that one tribe in an area had a certain social activity that made them good runners. Then they never bothered to test the theory against the other tribes that have very similar practices, just down the road. The Masai or Kikuyu perhaps?

You get grants for promoting science but do not bother to look at similar data that undermine your theory?

Dec. 03 2013 08:16 AM

I registered for this site exclusively to express how unbelievably racist this story is.

This is not the first time that Racistlab has had problems with cultural and racial sensitivity.
You should have abandoned this story when you started to squirm at how dangerously close your "research" was getting to eugenics. You nervously veered away from the idea of genetic running ability, stumbling into speculation on cultural practices that was exotifying, dehumanizing, and incredibly condescending. I cannot believe that you were smirking while discussing this, and pretending that this had anything at all to do with running. This show was the equivalent of a racist penis joke. You both should be embarrassed and ashamed.

If you're beginning to feel defensive, ask yourself this: Why didn't you have a Kalenjin person on the show?
Seriously, why? Don't tell me you "couldn't find anyone." It's because you would have been embarrassed of your own assertions and assumptions. Instead you had a white "expert" on Kenyan runners, which is racist and neo-colonial in itself-- but conveniently saved you from having to look a Kalenjin person in the eye.

Please thoughtfully consider the comments that are calling for you, Jad and Robert, to take a serious look at this story and understand why it is completely unacceptable.

If you had any decency or sense of responsibility to your listeners, you would remove this story from your website immediately.

- White woman in NY

I also want to echo the sentiments of the poster "alli" and am including their entire comment below.

The second half of this story is so irresponsibly racist and neoimperialist, as the comments that advise bombing kenya here clearly show. Not only is the logic irrational (if pain led to awesome runners then every woman who had extreme pms would run marathons), the assumption that such a coming of age ritual leads to "pain bearing" runners can only be accepted if you believe the most racist stereotypes of Kenyans. There is a long colonial history of using circumcision rituals as an excuse for judging/condemning or taking over Kenya. Such policies led to the an anti-colonial expansion of radical fgc that did put lives in danger. What irresponsible disgusting 'research'. See for ex: as well as

Dec. 02 2013 03:37 PM
Daniel S from Portland, OR

Overall a great broadcast.

Running involves two basic skills -- (1) getting your body to move fast and (2) keeping it moving fast when it starts to shut down. Genetics contributes to the first skill, while the pain ceremony contributes to the second skill. Throw in high altitudes and a running culture and you have the perfect storm.

Solid theory.

Nov. 22 2013 02:32 PM

I am disappointed in this show. The podcast begin by acknowledging that genetic factors are probably at work and they must be handled carefully to avoid racism. Then they decide they like the cultural ceremony explanation, because, as one of the anchors puts it, "it feels fair."

I normally like Radiolab, but this treatment made me rather upset. So I want to take a moment to lay out how I would have liked to see this story oriented:

1) Genetic factors are clearly at work. This is easy to see simply from looking at the runner's body type. This isn't a racist observation, it's true of all distance runners - they tend to have a very particular body type.

2) Cultural factors are clearly at work. The story about the pain ceremony was interesting and seems relevant, so it makes for a nice podcast topic.

3) Neither (1) nor (2) completely explain the phenomenon. As mentioned, there are numerous tribes and ethnicities with the distance-runner body type. There are also numerous tribes that have their own version of the pain ceremony. But only one tribe has produced so many Olympic Champions. So there are clearly more effects we are not aware of.

I am annoyed that Radiolab spent so much time whinging over the potential racist implications of acknowledging differences in body type (which feels fake - if something is true, just acknowledge it).

I am sad that they chose the pain ceremony explanation because it "feels fair."

The topic is interesting, but execution is condescending.

Nov. 22 2013 09:42 AM

For those asking about the lovely song at the end of the podcast: Gasper Lawal - Kita kita!


Nov. 15 2013 12:37 PM
Ken from Raleigh, NC

Wow, so what happens to those Kalenjins so munfortunate as to be born with a physical defect? Something like, "No reproduction for you! No go hobble over there to the corner in case we need bait for tomorrow's hunt." perhaps?

Kinda of gives the whole concept of the "cool kids" in school a whole new meaning.

Nov. 14 2013 05:38 PM

On the other hand, we here in Kenya are horrified by the limitless leeway and endless coddling afforded American and western children in general, so that they any manner trivial eventuality traumatizes them and lands them on the therapist's couch.

Further, the application of epithets like "torture" and "child abuse" to proud traditions here (such as circumcision) is ridiculous and we reject it as hysterical. This kind of sneering attitude towards Africans (as well as other non-white people) has been familiar to us for the last 500 years, more or less, and does not shock us. We understand it very well. It is manner in which modern, educated westerners act-out the age-old instinct to colonize and dominate that is so deeply embedded in western culture and which, appearances notwithstanding, has never abated.

Nov. 13 2013 11:04 PM

A very interesting story and hypothesis. However, as a scientist, distance runner, and avid radiolab listener, I was a little surprised that radiolab seemed to come so quickly to a conclusion that is likely not so simple, especially when one of radiolab's particular talents is demonstrating that science is rarely one-dimensional.

I was very impressed by radiolab's neutrality in difficult subjects (despite comments here that seem to oscillate between complaints about radiolab's implicit support of a "horrific" subject and complaints about apparent cultural insensitivity regarding the SAME subject). However, because radiolab has such a wide range of trusting listeners, it would be helpful to include these topics with at least a brief discussion of their implications. In the same way that showing violence and sex to children can be dangerous without discussing their meaning, having reputable sources present controversial issues with minimal discussion can produce extremely unfortunate misinterpretations (see Tom Batt's and Marko's comments for the most vivid examples).

Nov. 12 2013 10:07 PM
rh from NYC area

They talk about lower limb size, but is this only related to long-distance running? My family is long-waisted, short-legged, and my son is very fast (multiracial European/Asian and some African but probably west coast of Africa not east) despite his "disability" of short legs. There are also several African-Americans in his school who play football, soccer, or run track, and none are the fastest at the school or even close, be it short or long distances.

I question whether there is a tradition of Ethiopian distance runners that is begetting more and more success, or if there is a tradition of African distance runners where Ethiopia is the only successful country in distance running. If it is a tribal characteristic, genetic testing can be done to determine if any particular person of African descent has genetic links to the tribe, and if they inherently have the same long distance abilities. If it is a result of high-altitude training, that is certainly an advantage.

Races are not as different as others posted. Torturing children has already been shown in China and Russia to produce Olympic athletes. Forcing children into intense exercise at young ages can change their physical makeup. If you take an Ethiopian businessman of the same descent as the distance runners, and make him a record-breaker, then I'll start thinking about this being a nature rather than a nurture situation.

The simplest way to look at this is cases like Serena and Venus Williams are rare. Yes, some families have athletes but very few have many Olympic or world record winning athletes. Yet they have the same parents?

Nov. 12 2013 12:51 PM

The second half of this story is so irresponsibly racist and neoimperialist, as the comments that advise bombing kenya here clearly show. Not only is the logic irrational (if pain led to awesome runners then every woman who had extreme pms would run marathons), the assumption that such a coming of age ritual leads to "pain bearing" runners can only be accepted if you believe the most racist stereotypes of Kenlyans. There is a long colonial history of using circumcision rituals as an excuse for judging/condemning or taking over Kenya. Such policies led to the an anti-colonial expansion of radical fgc that did put lives in danger. What irresponsible disgusting 'research'. See for ex: as well as

Nov. 10 2013 08:02 PM

Just a couple of notes:

When people talk about genetic diversity related to athletics, they generally express it incorrectly. Simply put, Africa has tremendous genetic diversity because groups of people have evolved distinct from each other. So, eventually one group of people becomes very different from another. Remember, mixing actually REDUCES genetic expression. So tribes who have for years and years developed without influences out side the tribe will have characteristics very particular to that tribe.

It has been estimated that the number of people from Kenya who attempt to run, is about 1/40th of those who run HS track in the US every year.

There has never been a notable Kenyan sprinter. Seems odd, but then again if your specific genetic make-up gives you such an advantage to run distance races, then you can not also be a world class sprinter. Those two talents oppose each other physiologically. This lends support to a genetic advantage.

The Tarahumara run incredible ultra distance races, which no one else cares about or even cares to run. There is no element of speed in their running, so calling them the greatest runners is a comparing apples to oranges. They may be endurance specialists but not talented distance runners. No Tarahumara has ever qualified for an Olympic running event.

There are many other peoples around the world born at altitude, suffering hardships and pain, none have achieved any of the success the Kenyans have. Not all successful Kenyan runners ran to school, suffered genetic mutilation, etc. One of the greatest Kenyan runner lived above the school he attended. People from Kenyan heritage born and raised in other countries have become world class runners.

Again, this is not a statement on race, but a the realization of an incredible group of people, whose talent should be acknowledged and appreciated.

Nov. 10 2013 08:01 PM

^ @ what Ryan said, times 10.
I found the podcast amazingly, refreshingly non-PC and neutral about genital mutilation in these ceremonies (despite a lot of nervous laughter in the background.)

I'm sorry that so many are offended. IT HAPPENS. Any media that gives it some attention, like this one, can only spread light. I was very heartened to hear near the end that hospital circumcisions are becoming more socially accepted (though I would hope for none at all.)

Why beat up Radiolab for reporting this practice - maybe a little more than tangentially - in a fascinating podcast? They are not condoning it. I apologize, but I worry about such easily offended folks. I fear that you're missing the bigger picture.

Nov. 09 2013 09:48 PM
d from Midwest-Chicago

I would like to add that the Tarahumara who reside in the Copper Canyon area of Mexico have honed the ability to run hundreds of miles without rest or injury. They are a hidden tribe, super athletes and run races that most of the world has never seen. The Tarahumara are probably the best runners in the world without question. Their traditions differ from most running cultures. Again they probably are the best runners in the world. True ultra runners in which a 26 mile run for them is a warm up. Please check your science. The Tarahumara are legends in the history of running.

Nov. 09 2013 09:47 AM

WOW- didn't see that coming. Please include more of a disclaimer at the front of these shows. Wasn't ready for the description and had to shut off podcast immediately! Not going to censor or criticize subject material, but would have like to have had a warning...

Nov. 08 2013 09:11 PM
Amy from California

This story broke my heart. These are CHILDREN.

Nov. 08 2013 05:31 PM

One thing that was only touched upon in the show was the fact that so many of the Kalenjin try running. With that kind of sampling, they are bound to find the best runners in their population of (approx) 5 million. How many excellent runners might there be within 1 mile of you, but who never took up the sport? My wife (a cross-country coach) tells me that every once in a while a kid shows up with no prior training and has tremendous talent. If that kid had never shown up on the track, no one would have ever known. And if fewer and fewer people try running in the increasingly sedentary western countries, then it seems inevitable that fewer and fewer talented runners will be discovered there.

One thing that was not mentioned in the show is that Africans are the most genetically diverse group on the planet. All the rest of us descend from one or two branches of the African family, who left Africa approx 100,000 years ago. In other words, Africans are more different from each other than Asians are from Europeans (on average), genetically speaking. With such a broad sample of genetically diverse people on one continent, there is a better chance of matching genetics to a particular sport, I would think. I've never heard any one else suggest that this might be a reason, but doesn't that make sense?

Nov. 08 2013 12:24 AM
Heather Clegg from Austin, tx

I too was horrified at the glib discussion of male and female mutillation in this podcast. I've loved WNYC Radiolab from the first episode until yesterday. We would never accept the practice of child rape as a religious right so why do we accept the practice of sexual abuse with a knife or sharpened stick?

Nov. 07 2013 11:13 PM
matt from Illinois

What is that hauntingly beautiful song at the end of this episode?

Nov. 07 2013 09:30 PM

Is it really so hard to believe that there are subtle genetic factors that give certain genetic subpopulations advantage when looking at the top 1% of a large population? Listen again to the numbers of elite runners vs population of that tribe. There are lots of motivated and abused populations that do not dominate a sport with a tiny population. This wouldn't be controversial with any other species but consider it in humans an you're a monster.

It seems perverse in this hand-wringing PC age that the ability to withstand genital mutilation is deemed a more palatable explanation.

Nov. 06 2013 11:25 PM
John Oliver from Norfolk, Virginia

Radiolab prides itself on good science as well as good stories, and not only did science lose out here, moral sensitivity did as well. I am deeply concerned that radiolab became so enamored with the (unproven) notion that the ritual of genital mutilation inflicted on children turns them into adults who can perform great physical feats that it was unwilling to address the enormous damage done by such abuse. The comment has already been made that other African communities still inflict genital mutilation on their children without attaining the glory of Olympic gold that apparently justifies such mutilation in this story. Given its public platform and influence, radiolab has a moral responsibility to return to the issue of how we should respond to an entrenched ritual of inflicting such harm on children (including the extra harm on those "cowards" who cry.) Otherwise, I suppose I should expect a future radiolab episode on how hazing rituals enable people to perform better. (Maybe the NFL could be a sponsor.) Here's hoping you do the right thing and address this.

Nov. 06 2013 09:18 PM

This wasn't an editorial on the ethics of this Kenyan ritual. It was an overview of a theory of how a particular area of a particular country produces elite runners. Is that ritual terrible? I think we would all agree it is. Is its terribleness what this show was about? Come on.

I bet if you ask Jad and Robert, they aren't too keen on child abuse and genital mutilation, either. But their ethical judgment would be irrelevant to the subject matter and, in my view, inappropriate. These guys provide consistently excellent, thoughtful, FREE radio programming. If you don't like it, don't listen.

Nov. 06 2013 09:14 AM

This whole story is overshadowed by the theme of child abuse dressed up as cultural practice. Mutilation and torture are wrong.

Nov. 06 2013 08:55 AM

We should send our stealth bombers and aircraft carriers to Kenya to protect the poor children from those barbarians.

Nov. 05 2013 03:15 PM
Brody Salinger from Columbus, OH

I found a related article on the Kalenjin people and thought the title was a pun:

"Peering Under the Hood of Africa's Runners"

Turns out, it's just about their physique and muscle make-up.

Nov. 05 2013 11:25 AM
Bernice from North Carolina

This story does not give the reader much to work with. A lot of Kenyan tribes go through the same initiation/circumcision ceremony that the Kalenjins go through with some variation but they are not as good runners as the Kalenjins. It is very possible that it is in their genetic makeup to be such good runners and the ugali,altitude, mursik (sour milk)just add to the equation.I do not think anyone knows the secret yet, and if there is a secret- i doubt they will be sharing with the world.

Nov. 05 2013 09:57 AM

This topic was generally interesting. I was a bit put off by the hosts' aversion to even a discussion of there being a possible genetic component, as well as the vague reasoning to that aversion. I do not think there necessarily is a genetic factor, but it's in the realm of possibility and does not deserve to be glossed over for the sake of misguided political correctness.

Nov. 05 2013 12:39 AM

You people are utterly disgusting. Not only the flippant manner in which you speak about the torture these people are put through, but the one who HELD his nephews legs apart as they cut and ripped his foreskin off?! What the actual fuck?! You Americans are so disgusting.

Nov. 04 2013 08:21 PM
Anna from Santa Rosa , CA

Has anyone addressed the fact that the Kalenjin are not the only tribe in Kenya at altitude to practice circumcision rituals? Masai also practice such rituals and have similar customs with regards to cowardice and courage. Does the study suggest that the Kalenjin rituals are significantly more brutal?

Also, maybe an appropriate follow-up story should focus on recent efforts to end traditional circumcision and shed more light on the attrocities these young people are forced to endure during their traditional schooling.

Nov. 04 2013 04:54 PM
Charles Savoie from Montreal, QC, Canada

I was quite disgusted with the glib manner in which the topic of male genital mutilation was approached in this segment, particularly when the hosts laughed at the suggestion that the boy will be beaten if he grimaces. Had it been a teenage girl being cut up, and the hosts laughed, there would be a public outcry and they likely all would lose their jobs. But it's a boy being mutilated and not allowed to show pain, so it's funny, and it's okay that it's funny. I'm really disappointed with Radiolab.

Nov. 04 2013 04:02 PM

Like other commentators I've been frustrated and infuriated about the subject of genital mutilation having been handled this lightly, like an aside, a mere context. 'Respect' and 'tolerance' for something one would not tolerate within one's own realm and range can't be the explanation, it'd be the 1st step of giving up one's own values by using double standards. Even if the take is 'it wasn't about that', the description was long and elaborate, so it was very much about it as well.
The same goes for the entire initiation ritual of pain-enduring. The only voice speaking against it was the father who stated he'd never subject his children to this tour de torment.
There's no tradition that stands above common sense and the rights of children and adolescences. A tradition is essentially called so for the purpose of flagging - at least so it should be. You call something a tradition, you state that it is in need of constant revision: does it still make sense? Do they stand the test of ethical questions? Are they still or were they ever of a benevolent nature rather than a repressive?
There's a large number of issues where if one draws a line purely because of 'cultural distance' one commits an act of cowardice, no less.

On the matter of genetic dis- and advantages: the unease expressed in the podcast might originate in difficulties with distinction. Please rest assured: you won't be labelled a Nazi doctor if you point out genetic variations. Genetic variations are very much part of what drives diversity and therefore evolution. They ain't bad. Another example for pointing out such diversion would be the average difference in body length where Danish people, Masai and Pygmies are compared. It won't be calling each people 'better' or 'worse'. meanwhile the tendencies in regards of length are there. Hence the question whether cultural habits, be it of such despicable kind as genital mutilation or other, less or not at all damaging kinds, can be impregnated onto genetic code remains a fascinating one.

Nov. 04 2013 06:48 AM
E from Indiana

I haven't listened to this yet, but wanted to say how I've seen a lot of Ethiopians, and Mo Farah, win just as many distance races lately. In track & field Kenyans seem to win the steeple chase quite a bit, but the Ethiopians have won many 5 and 10ks in recent years. Just look up the stats.

Nov. 03 2013 10:01 PM

While genetics always strike up a chord of disagreement, the fact is these individuals have better genetics for their sport than most of the world. Add their training environment, diet and other factors and they produce winners. There's a reason why Bolt keeps winning the 100, Lance Armstrong--knowing his peers were probably all doping--was a multi-race winner in the Tour, Steve Prefontaine, or, top skill players such as pitchers simply rise to the top to the top. They've got the genetics (gross & fine motor skills, muscle length, bone structure, etc.)...add the right training environment, etc., and there you have it.

Nov. 03 2013 09:20 PM


This HAS been shown several times scientifically (lower limb size). Additionally, there are other significant anthropomorphic characteristics which separate them from other populations/subpopulations. When compared to people of European decent, Kenyans and other Africans have lower sitting heights (which means smaller torso or longer legs comparatively). Etc, etc. When competing in an all out effort event, such as running maybe these differences result in an advantage? Maybe they are a disadvantage for other sport events. I don't see too many Kenyan football players, yet many NFL players from West Africa?

The point is, elite runners from all over the world have always recognized the physical differences between the Africans and non Africans. For various reasons the general public is not ready to acknowledge any one group has a physical advantage. I don't understand the fear.

I've run competitively for years on a high level. I trained with elite runners from all over the world. The idea that a pain tolerance culture is the primary reason for Kenyan success is absurd.

ps. Don't tell the Ethiopians, Moroccans, Algerians, Somalians the pain future secret, they might just push the track records further out of reach.

Nov. 03 2013 06:45 PM

Interesting points, but why not go on to confirm whether champion Kenyan runners actually have thinner ankles and higher tolerances to pain? These are measurable things!

Nov. 03 2013 07:49 AM
Kamau from Boston

I am a longtime listener, Kenyan-American and physician. I was thrilled to hear the topic and was looking forward to a scientifically based presentation on this fascinating subject. Unfortunately I ended up being pretty horrified by this show. In my opinion you did little other than endorse Western stereotypes of African savagery, and feed into its fascination with African genitalia.

Nov. 03 2013 07:36 AM

You should really have done your homework before talking about circumcision (even the hospital one) and particularly female genital mutilation. Just stick to American pop culture, guys - it should be easier.

Nov. 03 2013 04:47 AM
Meh from Silver Spring, MD

I was disappointed in this story. It sort of bummed me out. I thought that at some point the program would address that terrible side effects and life-long issues that people who have been subjected to this mutilation can experience. However, the program remained virtually silent on that part of the subject. Here's hoping that the next episode is more lively.

Nov. 02 2013 10:01 PM
Martin from North Pole

I find the whole 'why are East Africans better at this' a kind of silly. And I think the multitude of possible answers and only weak conclusions as in this article is one of the best examples of how similar we all really are despite minor differences in skin color, economical development etc. Hard work, determination and culture are the single topic in any way of looking at why are those or those better at this or that. There is no gene for success in anything and only attitude matters. Unless there is a gene for jealousy.

Nov. 02 2013 04:09 PM
Matthew Greenacre from Ontario

This story reminded me of my experiences planting trees in the Canadian boreal forest. This is considered one of the most physically and mentally exhausting jobs in the world, because you spend 60-80 hours a week doing nothing but planting seedlings at a rate of 3-20 trees per minute marching through swamps, climbing over rock, freezing in cold rain or sleet, or being roasted by the sun, and all the while being eaten by clouds of mosquitoes and black flies. After doing this for two months straight, my pain tolerance had grown enormously. After my first summer of planting, I started to take up long distance running which I was useless at before. I started to actually enjoy breaking through pain barriers. Though this Canadian rite of passage doesn't compare to the Kalenjin circumcision process, I could relate and think that the ability to force oneself through pain is an excellent exercise of will that anyone can benefit from. If you are aware of the marshmallow experiment, you will know that discipline is a better predictor of success in life than anything else.

Also, I have heard a theory that millennia of running thirty miles to rustle the neighbouring tribe's cattle and then running back with them straight away has probably helped the evolution of superb runners along. I'm not sure how you would test this empirically, unless there are tribes that are similar to the Kipsigis in that they have fantastic pain rituals but do not have a long history of rustling cattle, in which case one could compare the two as a natural experiment. Anyway, food for thought.

Nov. 02 2013 12:42 PM

Kip: there's a body of hypotheses suggesting that at some point, the mind is indeed a limiting factor - look at the 'central governor' theories.

Don: Ryun (with a 'U') ascribed his loss in 1968 to the altitude, not to any tripping. The tripping incident you recall occurred in 1972.

Nov. 02 2013 05:12 AM
sarah from las vegas, nv

While I believe there is much to be said about trying and about living through all kinds of stressful and painful ordeals that in the end make you stronger, i believe there is more to it.(e.g. people that have survived destitution and starvation scenarios seem to live longer lives..or is it the survivor that was destined to live longer anyway? hmm?)

In massage therapy school an anatomy teacher discussing flexion and extension of the muscles of the calf told us a very interesting aside that has stuck with me longer then the names of all those muscles. She said there is newer evidence that shows some of the Elite African Track athletes e.g. the Kenyan distance runners, have been found to be able to contract connective tissue in addition to muscle tissue which gives them an advantage when it comes to efficient o2 burning and subsequent muscle fatigue management, key components of distance running. In short the connective tissue of the back of the calf is more stretchy in these runners and has the ability to contract.

For the record this is amazing and I have not heard of this ability in any other athlete group.

I wonder if it plays any contributing factor.

Nov. 02 2013 01:53 AM
Don Cruser from Little River, CA

Perhaps my memory is failing me but I was a contemporary runner in Jim Ryan's time and I was eager to watch the two greatest middle distance runners in the world meet in the olympics of 1968. What i remember is that the match up failed to develop because Ryan was tripped and fell down in the middle of the race. Your video did not show this and your radio podcast did not mention it and lead everyone to believe that Kip beat Ryan in a way that proved his superiority. Unfortunately, since Ryan was tripped the race did not establish who was the best in the world. Jim Ryan was probably the greatest middle distance runner in the history of our country and you have insulted him and his fans with this omission.

Other than that it was a fascinating report and confirmed much of what my Kenyan friends have told me. If you want to witness the role of genetics in the ability to run, I would encourage you to go to the greyhound races sometime. You will see that some dogs, and humans, are designed to run. I also think that the Kenyan diet of white corn polenta and collard greens is an important asset.

Nov. 02 2013 01:41 AM

If middle distance and distance running were only a matter of trying harder than the competition, success would not be confined to one tribe in East Africa. The limiting factor is physical talent. Most elites train to the threshold of injury.

The limitations in a running event are not just confined to the bodies feedback telling you to back off, but are also concrete physiological limitations such as muscle fatigue due to lack of oxygen and innate speed. This are things that can't be overcome by "pushing through the pain".

I believe its about time we acknowledge and appreciate the physical differences between groups of people and stop chalking up performance differences to social reasons.

Watching the elite African distance runners race on the track is one of the most a beautiful example of human movement.

Nov. 01 2013 09:43 PM
Tom Batts

Wow we should start forcing our children through pain and agony all the time.

Nov. 01 2013 09:01 PM

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