Oct 19, 2010

Wild Talk

In today's podcast, we get a tantalizing taste of words in the wild, from the jungles to the prairie.

Reporter Ari Daniel Shapiro tells us about Klaus Zuberbuhler's work in the Tai Forest of West Africa. When Klaus first came to the forest, he hit a wall of sound. But he slowly started making sense of that sonic chaos by scaring a particular monkey called the Diana Monkey. Turns out, the Diana Monkey is making more than just noise. Then we jump from the jungle to the prairie, where Con Slobodchikoff has discovered what he calls a grammar of color, shapes, and sizes embedded in prairie dog chirps. His discovery leaves Jad and Robert wondering whether we could ever understand the language of a different species. Back in the jungle, Klaus is wondering the same thing, and tells us about one day when the cacophony of monkey calls distilled into a life-saving warning.

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Intro Segment:

Listener-supported WNYC Studios.

Speaker 2:

Wait, wait. You're listening ... Okay. All right. Okay. All right. You're Listening to Radiolab... Radiolab.

Speaker 3:

Shorts!

Speaker 2:

From WNYC and NPR.

Jad Abumrad:

Hey, I'm Jad Abumrad.

Robert Krulwich:

I'm Robert Krulwich.

Jad Abumrad:

This is radio lab...

Robert Krulwich:

The podcast...

Jad Abumrad:

The podcast...

Jad Abumrad:

And in this podcast, I've learned... How would you describe this one?

Robert Krulwich:

My sense is that you walk into a wild place and you hear the wind and the trees, and you hear these chirps and sounds and calls, and they're just part of the... They're part of the wild. They're wildlife but there's now a group of scientists who listen much more closely and who are reducing wildlife to wild talk. It's, it's...

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah.

Robert Krulwich:

There are words in there.

Jad Abumrad:

When you find the words, as the people we will meet, do in these stories, you end up not just understanding, but actually entering that wild space in a very cool way.

Robert Krulwich:

So we're going to tell you two tales here.

Jad Abumrad:

Two different places. The first, a jungle and the second,

Robert Krulwich:

A Prairie.

Jad Abumrad:

Right. Jungle gets us started and then the Prairie, and later...

Jad Abumrad:

This is a story, this first one, that we heard about...

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yeah, yeah. I'm...

Jad Abumrad:

From Ari.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

I'm Ari Daniel Shapiro. I'm a public radio producer in Boston.

Jad Abumrad:

And Ari recently met a guy. I think a German.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

He's Swiss.

Jad Abumrad:

No, [crosstalk 00:01:35] his name is Klaus Zuber Buhler.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Hey Ari, it's Klaus.

Jad Abumrad:

And he's a professor of psychology,

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

At the University of St. Andrews.

Jad Abumrad:

Which is in Scotland. And where does this story actually take place because...

Robert Krulwich:

Where's the jungle?

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah,

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Well maybe the best place to start is to kind of describe the scene where we are,

Jad Abumrad:

Okay.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

which is in the Thai forest.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Thai forest.

Jad Abumrad:

Which is in the ivory coast in Africa.

Robert Krulwich:

So it's not in Thailand?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

No, it's not. It's T.A.I.

Robert Krulwich:

T.A.I. Okay.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yeah. And Klaus describes the jungle as this thick, sensory world.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Very dark, very moist, and very, very green.

Speaker 2:

And you can't really see for more than 15 to 20 feet.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

And I mean, sometimes you feel like you walk through a big cathedral of dark trees and you don't see very much because all the animals, obviously very shy and run away.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

I mean, is it still?

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

No, it's... It is very, very noisy.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

It's a den, it's just this kind of Sonic [inaudible 00:02:39].

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

All of these insects and birds and bats and mammals. It's almost as if they compete for acoustic space. So it is very, very loud. I mean, the main sensation you have in the beginning really is that you're completely lost.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

So, it's 1991.

Robert Krulwich:

All right.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And he figured he had to start somewhere so he focused his attention on a kind of monkey.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

A very beautiful monkey.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Called the Diana monkey.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

This mix of black, white, and sort of reddish?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Diana monkeys live up in the tree tops, which can be as high as a hundred feet off the ground.

Jad Abumrad:

Wow.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

They eat fruits and they eat insects and they're chattering.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

[unintelligible 00:03:27] of calls.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Which to him, of course-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

You know, as a newcomer to the forest-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Was all just noise.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Just a little bit... Imagine a child trying to learn a language, which initially wants to sound like a string of sounds that you can't really understand and then you know-

Jad Abumrad:

So what did he do?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Well, he started provoking the monkeys into making different kinds of noises. For instance, he'd walk out into the forest with a boombox-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Speaker-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

and play the sound of the Diana monkeys most feared predator, the leopard.

Jad Abumrad:

He would just play the sound into the trees?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yep. And all of a sudden-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Suddenly-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

They started leaping around the branches, [crosstalk 00:04:12] hopping around-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Motion and-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And they make this one particular call.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

You know, just very loud alarm calls.

Speaker 2:

This one here.

Robert Krulwich:

Meaning what?

Jad Abumrad:

Are they just saying run or is it something more specific?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Well, here's where it gets a little bit more interesting. Next step, he brought that same cassette player out-

Jad Abumrad:

Pointed it at the trees, hit play, all that?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yep. But this time he plays...

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

The shrieks of a Crowned Eagle.

Jad Abumrad:

Eagles eat monkeys?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yeah, they do.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

They attack from above.

Robert Krulwich:

I've heard about them. They're very scary. They come flying in with their talons, with their beaks and they hit you in the head sharply and kill you instantly. And then you fall to the ground.

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah. And so what are the monkeys do when they hear this?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

They make... That sound.

Jad Abumrad:

Same one?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Well, that's what he thought but when he went back to the lab and started looking at the sounds on the computer, comparing one to the other Eagle...

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Leopard... eagle... leopard... He realized... that they're actually slightly different.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

In the acoustic details of the calls, it is something that is very difficult to hear when you're really only see it in the spectrogram, which is kind of a visual representation of these calls.

Jad Abumrad:

This is on the computer?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yeah.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

But interestingly once you've seen that and once you know what to pay attention to, you go out into the forest and suddenly you do hear these differences, which you haven't heard before.

Robert Krulwich:

So you're saying when they hear a call "leopard!" coming, they go up the tree but when they hear "Eagle!" Coming, they run down tree?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Exactly. Exactly.

Robert Krulwich:

It's really kind of like, a word. They... Like a word. You know, that's kind of amazing.

Jad Abumrad:

Let's pull out for a second, 'cause this guy actually got us thinking honestly. How much language actually is out there in the wild? What do we know? What's the state of what we know right now? And that question led us out of the forest, just for a second, and to a place and a creature that we just didn't think would be a part of this conversation at all. And that creature is...

Robert Krulwich:

The Prairie dog!

Jad Abumrad:

Prairie Dogs.

Robert Krulwich:

So here's the thing, Prairie dogs are these little rodent-like animals. They live under the ground in burrows and when their community is invaded, they pop out of the burrow and they think, "Oh, here comes the... Whatever". Sounds kind of like...

Robert Krulwich:

"Chee, chee, chee, chee" [Prairie dog sound 00:06:46].

Robert Krulwich:

"Chee, chee, chee, chee"

Jad Abumrad:

So, we spoke with this guy.

Speaker 8:

My name is [Kans Labochikov 00:06:53], Professor Emeritus, at Northern Arizona University-

Jad Abumrad:

Who's spent a whole lot of time-

Speaker 8:

Sitting out in the colonies-

Jad Abumrad:

Recording Prairie dog calls. And he now believes that these simple little rodents are like nature's wordsmith.

Speaker 8:

Well, the thing is that, initially I recorded-

Jad Abumrad:

For instance, he began by telling us that the Prairie dogs have different kinds of cheese-

Speaker 8:

For different kinds of predators.

Jad Abumrad:

For example-

Speaker 8:

Humans, coyotes-

Robert Krulwich:

And ducks.

Speaker 8:

Right.

Jad Abumrad:

Is this the kind of thing that we would actually be able to hear the difference between the calls?

Speaker 8:

I'm guessing that you could hear the difference.

Robert Krulwich:

You want to try it Jad?

Speaker 8:

Yeah.

Speaker 9:

Sorry, could you just play those samples?

Speaker 10:

Alright. So here's one. [Prairie dog sound 00:07:31]

Speaker 10:

This is another one. [Prairie dog sound 00:07:36]

Robert Krulwich:

All right.

Jad Abumrad:

Okay.

Speaker 10:

Here we go. This is a third. [Prairie dog sound 00:07:41]

Jad Abumrad:

Those represent different predators?

Speaker 8:

Yep.

Robert Krulwich:

I can't tell the difference.

Jad Abumrad:

Can you? I mean, do you know what they are?

Speaker 8:

My guess is human, dog, coyote.

Speaker 10:

Kan was right.

Robert Krulwich:

Kan was right?

Jad Abumrad:

Wow.

Robert Krulwich:

Well naturally we wondered how-

Jad Abumrad:

How did he do that?

Robert Krulwich:

He told us that at first, just like you and I, he couldn't figure out how to distinguish between these sounds, but he took the sound back to the lab-

Speaker 8:

Where we had a machine that allowed us to measure a series of frequency and time elements in the call.

Robert Krulwich:

And what this computer does is it takes the sound that the Prairie dogs make and it essentially looks inside for the ingredients inside the sound.

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah, like a... Well, it's kind of hard to hear with a chirp because it's just hard. So let me demonstrate crudely with this other sound. I plucked this at random from my library so this is kind of like a buzz. [Buzz sound 00:08:39].

Robert Krulwich:

Okay. [Buzz sound 00:08:39] Okay.

Jad Abumrad:

Okay? Let me just loop it so we can hear it better. [Buzz sound 00:08:44] So here you've got this buzz, which sounds to us like a solid piece of noise, but get any cue and take away all the highs. So now got just the base.

Robert Krulwich:

Yep.

Jad Abumrad:

Now, you'll notice if you add the highs back in real slowly, these little hidden overtones will pop out like a... There's one,

Robert Krulwich:

Yep.

Jad Abumrad:

There's another.

Robert Krulwich:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jad Abumrad:

Third.

Robert Krulwich:

Yep.

Jad Abumrad:

Fourth.

Robert Krulwich:

Mm-hmm (affirmative).

Jad Abumrad:

So in other words, this sound is filled with little ghost notes that we can't hear. And certainly the same is true of this sound [Prairie dog sound 00:09:21] except in the case of the Prairie dogs, it seems their ears are tuned to hear all the different sounds within the chirp. Probably sounds to them like this whole layer cake of tones.

Robert Krulwich:

And Kans computer noticed that the noise they made when a human walked through their village was different in tone from the noise they made when a coyote walked through their village. It was consistently different. But there was a problem. When he zoomed in on the "Uh Oh, here come the human calls" [Prairie dog sound 00:09:49] [inaudible 00:09:50]?here.

Jad Abumrad:

And he looked at them really closely. He saw that from one human call to the next, there was a lot of subtle variation.

Speaker 8:

Much, much more than I would expect.

Robert Krulwich:

And that's when it hit him.

Jad Abumrad:

What if-

Robert Krulwich:

What if-

Jad Abumrad:

What if-

Jad Abumrad:

What if they could be describing the individual humans.

Robert Krulwich:

Oh.

Speaker 8:

Now at that time, no one suspected that this might even be a possibility, but I thought, well, let's try it and see what happens.

Jad Abumrad:

So Khan recruited four humans-

Robert Krulwich:

And he had them dress exactly the same. Same boot, same blue jeans, same sunglasses, everything the same except the color of their shirts.

Speaker 8:

We had a person in a blue t-shirt, a person in a green t-shirt, a person in a yellow shirt, a person in a gray shirt.

Jad Abumrad:

Then he asked each of them to walk through the Prairie dog village-

Robert Krulwich:

One by one.

Jad Abumrad:

Prairie dogs made their chips.

Speaker 8:

And when we analyzed the results, there were significant differences.

Jad Abumrad:

Like what kind?

Speaker 8:

They essentially clustered around the colors.

Robert Krulwich:

Does that mean you think you can hear them saying, "Here comes the human in blue"?

Speaker 8:

Right.

Robert Krulwich:

Versus "Here comes the human in yellow"?

Speaker 8:

Right?

Jad Abumrad:

Really?

Speaker 8:

Oh, I was astounded. I was astounded.

Robert Krulwich:

He was like, well, wait a second. These humans, they're not just different in their shirt colors. They're different than all kinds of ways.

Speaker 8:

Some of the humans were taller, some the humans were shorter.

Jad Abumrad:

So we went back, reanalyzed the chirps, looked a little more closely-

Speaker 8:

And-

Jad Abumrad:

Realized-

Speaker 8:

We could tease out-

Jad Abumrad:

The Prairie dogs were also commenting about-

Speaker 8:

The general size of the human. Essentially they were saying, "Here comes the tall human in the blue" versus "Here comes the short human in the yellow".

Robert Krulwich:

Wow.

Jad Abumrad:

And then, he made another leap.

Speaker 8:

And it was just-

Jad Abumrad:

You know, since he was on a roll-

Speaker 8:

Off the wall idea at that time-

Robert Krulwich:

He went back into the Prairie dog field and he built two large wooden boxes-

Speaker 8:

Sitting on stilts-

Jad Abumrad:

A good distance from each other.

Speaker 8:

150 feet. And we strung wires between the two towers.

Robert Krulwich:

His team then made cardboard cutouts of three different shapes.

Speaker 8:

A circle, a square, and a triangle.

Robert Krulwich:

And then they ran them out along the wire, kind of like a laundry fluttering above you in the breeze.

Speaker 8:

Each shape would emerge from one of the tower blinds and fly something like about three feet over the Prairie dog town.

Jad Abumrad:

Literally, you would just kind of go [inaudible 00:12:19] and out would come a triangle or a circle or a square?

Speaker 8:

Correct. And what we found was that the Prairie dogs could tell the triangle from the circle very easily, but they could not seem to tell the difference between a square and a circle.

Jad Abumrad:

Huh. Why not?

Speaker 8:

Well, my guess is that triangles kind of look like hawks.

Jad Abumrad:

Mmm.

Speaker 8:

Circles and squares kind of look like terrestrial predators.

Jad Abumrad:

Nonetheless, what you've got here is a little rodent with a remarkably big vocabulary, including, but probably not limited to, short, fat, skinny, tall, blue, green, yellow, gray, coyote, human, hawk, triangle, and or square.

Robert Krulwich:

Yay!

Jad Abumrad:

It's not bad.

Robert Krulwich:

Is the next step that you're going to perform a scene from the Winter's Tale and see whether the [crosstalk 00:13:07] Prairie dogs laugh at the right moments? What do you do next?

Speaker 8:

Well, we just, are scratching the surface of looking at this. For example, Prairie dogs have a lot of calls, which we call social chatters. One Prairie dog will be feeding and suddenly lift up its head and go, chitter chatter, chitter, chitter. And another Prairie dog somewhere across the colony will lift up its head and go chatter, chatter, chitter, chitter. But what does it mean? We have no way of getting at it. It could be just simply chatter chitter chitter or it could be, do you know where Sam was last night?

Robert Krulwich:

Now here's an interesting question. I mean, if a French couple were sitting next to me on the subway and they were saying, "Do you know where Sam was last night" in French? If I don't speak French, I'm outside of that conversation. But a lot of people do speak French and they can listen to French people talking. The question's then raised, if you live in the forest and you speak chimp or you speak eagle or you speak snake, would you ever be able to overhear or learn something from a neighborly species? In other words, is there an equivalent of listening to the other person talking French in the wild?

Jad Abumrad:

Hmm, good question.

Robert Krulwich:

And that brings us back to Klaus. You remember Klaus?

Speaker 2:

The monkey guy?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yeah, the monkey guy. Well, Klaus was wondering the same thing.

Jad Abumrad:

And that's a Ari Daniel Spiro again, who introduced us to Klaus.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

So take those alarm calls, for instance. He wanted to know whether different species of monkeys could understand each other.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Right, so um...

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And luckily for Klaus [crosstalk 00:14:42] there's like at least 10 different primate species living inside that Thai forest.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

So there's-

Jad Abumrad:

One Columbus monkeys, two-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Spot-nosed monkeys.

Jad Abumrad:

Three, chimpanzees, four-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Colobos.

Jad Abumrad:

Five-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Colobines-

Jad Abumrad:

Six-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Putty-nose monkeys.

Jad Abumrad:

Seven-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Mangabey species.

Jad Abumrad:

Eight-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Prosimians-

Jad Abumrad:

Nine-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Campbulls monkey.

Jad Abumrad:

And then the Diana's, 10.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Yeah, so it's a very rich primate [inaudible 00:00:15:03].

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

So Klaus's question was, could Diana monkeys understand the alarm calls of another one of these monkeys? The Campbell's monkey.

Jad Abumrad:

Oh, could they go across monkey lines, so to speak?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Exactly.

Jad Abumrad:

Hmm.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

So he used that same setup from before-

Jad Abumrad:

The speaker thing where he plays the sound into the trees?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yeah. And he played the eagle and leopard alarm calls from the Campbells monkeys to the Diana's to see if they'd react.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

And what we found, there to our great surprise, was that the Diana monkeys-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

They understand it.

Jad Abumrad:

Really?

Robert Krulwich:

Really?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yep.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

They take that very, very seriously and respond to it very strongly.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

So a Diana monkey hearing, a Campbells eagle alarm call will respond as though there were an eagle and will respond to the leopard alarm call as though there were a leopard and vice versa-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

And it doesn't stop there.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Klaus started playing the monkey calls to birds.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

To chest hornbills-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yellow-cast hornbills.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

It turns out that-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

They understand it.

Jad Abumrad:

The birds?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Yep. These hornbills-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Are capable of discriminating these different monkey alarm calls.

Robert Krulwich:

Wow.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

So it's a pretty substantial web species. Basically eavesdropping on each other's calls in these forests.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

But Klaus himself, he was still on the outside of it all.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

It is that general sense of perhaps not really belonging there. But then-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

He told me about this one day.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

I was working in the forest.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

He had gone out for the day and he'd gone out alone.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

And it was very far away from camp-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And it was in the late afternoon and he realized that he should probably be heading back to camp.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Because I still had to walk for something like 15, 20 kilometers to back to camp.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And he was walking past a kind of Valley.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

And then I heard on the other side of the Valley...

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

A monkey group giving leopard alarm calls, which doesn't happen that often.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

It was the first time that he wasn't actively listening, but he heard these monkeys make this call and recognized it.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

It was absolutely striking.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And he was actually quite excited by this.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Because I was suddenly able to understand what the monkey's trying to say, so to speak.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Those monkeys had picked up a leopard.

Robert Krulwich:

Right beneath that sound, there the leopard would be.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Right, but you know, those monkeys were way across the Valley.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

So I didn't really think that much and walked on. Perhaps half a mile further down the road.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And the next group of Diana monkeys... still across the Valley.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Start giving leopard alarm codes as well.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And he kind of took notice of that...

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

And then it happened a third time, a few minutes later.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

What became clear to me, very rapidly, is that a leopard was-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Tracking him.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Of course, I couldn't see it because it was dense forest but I assumed that the leopard's on me and of course thar it just one of these moments where you're totally alone, far, far away from camp.

Robert Krulwich:

What does he do?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

He kept walking. It happened a fourth group called leopard, fifth group called leopard. And then the group stopped calling.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

The only thing I could think of is to pick up a large branch.

Jad Abumrad:

I shouldn't laugh. That's just terrifying.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Klaus would that stick have done anything for you?

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

I doubt I really would have been able to do very much with a stick.

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

But as he's standing there, stick in hand, he realizes he's just entered the forest. He's become-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

The 11th primate.

Jad Abumrad:

The 11th primate-

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Because there are those 10 other species of primate and now...

Jad Abumrad:

Me. Suddenly I shifted from being the objective observer to being a sort of part of that whole crowd in there. Even though, we're separated by 20, 30 million of years of evolutionary history, these humble creatures, were able to teach me something about, what was going on into forest. And of course, it wasn't intentional. They weren't trying to inform me or anything like that, but it was a very emotional experience.

Jad Abumrad:

So what happened? I mean, obviously you didn't get eaten. What happened?

Ari Daniel Shapiro:

Well, he made it back to camp and he's not sure what happened to the leopard. The leopard must've slinked off into the forest. In the end, became-

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Just another story to tell each other over beers in the evening, I suppose.

Jad Abumrad:

Yeah.

Robert Krulwich:

Yeah.

Klaus Zuber Buhler:

Yeah.

Robert Krulwich:

Thanks for that story to Ari Daniel Shapiro, our correspondent-

Jad Abumrad:

And also thanks to Klaus Zuber Buhler and [Kans Lovachikov 00:00:20:07]. I'm Jad Abumrad.

Robert Krulwich:

I'm Robert Krulwich.

Jad Abumrad:

Thanks for listening.

Cassandra:

This is Cassandra Williard, a Radiolab listener in Brooklyn, New York. Radiolab is supported in part by the Alfred P. Sloan foundation, enhancing public understanding of science and technology in the modern world. For more information about Sloan, go to... Let me start over. More information about Sloan at www.sloan.org.

Speaker 12:

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